TR- What differentiates your label from a major label?

We want to stay small. We operate Asian Man Records like a family…there are no contracts, bands are free to come and go if they want. We want our bands to be happy, and we try to pick bands that we really feel a connection with. Mike started the label because he loves music, and that always comes first.

TR- What is the most difficult aspect of your job that a typical music fan wouldn’t be aware of?

Saying NO! No really, it sounds mean, but this is something I am trying to learn…basically doing promotion and just working here, I think people assume I can just send them free stuff at will or sign any old band. It just doesn’t work

that way. We try to do stuff thoughtfully, not just do mass mailings and blindly promote things. We can’t afford $300 ads, or streetteams that give away mass amounts of senseless promo items…We want to do alot of new and interesting things, but we want them to have meaning, I guess.

TR- How important is it to be in a major market city, for a band and for a label, vs. being in a smaller market?

?? It doesn’t really mean anything to us, as far as “how far you can go” in a big city vs. a suburb. I guess maybe the important thing is to have a sense of community. I like that idea.

TR- What is your favorite label?

Dischord.

TR- Why do you consider Dischord one of your favorite labels, what’s your criteria?

I can’t really say I have a favorite, it’s more that I really admire Dischord for all the music they put out, their ideas, the things they support. I like that they work out of the house. I like that they support what’s going on locally in DC. I like that they are accessible.

TR- Don’t you feel the D.C. scene is so insular compared to other cities?

I feel like that question implies that DC is a box, like a freezer or something. No, I don’t think that a city can be “insular”…people are free to come and go, exchange ideas, how can it be insular? It’s not like if you aren’t from DC you can’t play there or go to a show. It’s funny because I wonder why people have that assumption…just because Dischord signs only DC bands? That’s silly…It just doesn’t make sense. Talk to me more about this…

TR- Many seem to consider Dischord the indie-leaders since they have managed to remain outside the mainstream yet musically successful, but it seems there are not too many indie labels that are yelling loud enough to get widespread recognition on the current issues. …Should we be looking to indie labels to be taking a stronger stand against, or for, Napster. Or even for political causes that influence musicians. Why do their voices seem so quiet?

I don’t think that you have to be politically active to have a smaller label. I mean it’s kind of inherent that if you are staying outside of the mainstream music world, then you are in essence making a statement already…but I don’t know if you have to take a stand for certain issues. I feel like it’s important to me. There are so many great labels that are doing great stuff stuff politically, socially, etc., and that’s really inspiring. I don’t know for me, I know I have to choose my battles, too…I don’t give a shit about Napster, really. There are so many other things that are meaningful to me that I should give my energy to.

TR- Why aren’t more indie bands actively involved in political discussions?

Same as above, I think.

TR- Why have politics become so “uncool”? Could this be a reason why so many fans out there download mp3 files without thinking twice?

I think it’s just the trend these days…the swing from a time when people felt like it was important to be politically and socially aware. It’s just hard for me to see and hear bands that are so careless about their words and actions, just acting stupid at the costs of others and then justifying it by saying “Oh, we’re just trying to be funny, and get a rise outta people”. I am talking about racism and sexism especially.

TR- Are indie bands even the underground anymore? And if not them, who is?

I think it used to be that if you weren’t playing mainstream music, if you weren’t on the radio or on a major label, then you had no choice but to be underground….Things are different now.

TR- How did you get into the music biz?

For Mike, he’s been in music for a long time…as a frontman for Skankin Pickle, and then with the label and The Chinkees…He’s always had a passion for it. For me, it was an accident!

TR- Generally what do you think about the prevalence of mp3s and the whole Napster Phenomenon?

Hmmm, I think it’s all blown out of proportion. Mp3’s and downloadable music is just another format…I am one of those old computer weary folks, I think, ’cause I just can’t seem to care all that much about it…

TR- Do you believe that the “record” is going to become obsolete in favor of structures like the subscription system that some labels are toying with, and how do you think this change in music delivery changes the way the public looks at bands.

Good question. I think it’s always been that way…people trying to find the new thing first and then forgetting the old. 78’s, 7inches, LP’s, 8-track, tapes, CD’s, MP3’s, beta, VHS, DVD… But I’ve tried not to be too concerned with that. I mean, Mike still makes vinyl here. I am always somewhere between thinking how sad it is that no one buys vinyl anymore and being super excited when I see one of our releases in that big beautiful 12″ format! I guess it comes back to the fact that we like the smaller, old fashioned (so funny to think of it like that…) ways of doing stuff. That’s where our hearts are.

TR- Do you believe the labels, both major and indie, had the responsibility to see this coming and should’ve prepared themselves better?

I guess the people who are crying over it now should’ve been more prepared…then I wouldn’t have to hear them bitching about how they are getting ripped off.

TR- What do you think is in the future for small labels in relation to Napster?

I just have to hope that there are still bands and listeners who have values like us. I think there are. We’ll just try to keep doing what we are doing for as long as we can.

TR- Do you believe there will ever be any regulation, any royalty paying system for downloaded mp3s?

Yes, if someone can find a way to make money off of it, they will…

TR- Do artists lose credibility the more music becomes easily stolen and/or easily downloaded?

I do think that people who download music should think about where that music comes from. I think that’s one of my biggest gripes about the whole issue of downloaded music. Like when you get an LP or even a CD, you go to the store and you look for it, or you send away your money and then wait for it to come in the mail, or someone gives it to you, or you collect it, and then you have a very solid, tangible thing. It’s been made by someone, a band, a CD manufacturer, a label, and you can feel all time and energy and all that. But when you download a song, you get a number, and usually you don’t even get the whole album. Sometimes, you only know the band’s name or the song’s name. You can download it, listen to it for 30 seconds and then send it to the trash. So there’s a kind of detachment from the recorded music itself…

TR- Does music have a significant cultural value that is a necessary element in the survival in a culture like in the US?

Of course, anyone who listens to music or who plays music knows it’s value. Or at least they should know.

TR- Do you believe in the theory that every band has to have a hit single in order to make it?

What’s a hit single?

TR- What issues would you like to see Tranjka discuss in future editions?

I am really interested in music communities and how they function.

TR- Do you mean local scenes where the bands help each other out or do you mean actual bunch o’ bands living in one building, recording studio in basement, trying to get something together?

Either, or acutally, both…I think that both those ideas are really important and interesting…

TR- Why is a music community important?

That’s like asking why is there music? Yeah, you could just sit in your room and play your heart out to just yourself, but really I think music is really about communication. If there was no community, who would hear your music, who would be at the show, who would hang flyers, who would hang out, who would give you support, who would you practice with…all those kind of questions…A community is a moment in time for a band, i think, does that make sense?

Having Luna and Superdrag on your roster, do you feel you are the label that offers bands the opportunity to take their careers into their own hands after dealing with life in the majors?

arena rock releases music we like whether it’s pre-major or post-major. superdrag was our very first release well before they went to a major. we’ve remained fans and it’s good to have them back. as far as luna…i loved their major label records and this was just a great opportunity. most of our bands have not had major record deals but if anyone is unhappy where they are then they should have another option. i guess we’re the “single boy-in-waiting”.

How many bands do you have on your label?

arena rock has less than five current acts. big dynamite…small package.

Why did those bands decide to put out records with your label?

with superdrag…our very first release was a seven inch by them. i remained in touch and love their music. with luna…their manager knew arena rock and contacted me when they were dropped from elektra and then again when their most recent label went belly-up.

What type of suggestions do you make to the bands on your label?

no shiny shirts! if there’s a song on yer new record that everyone in the room is screaming for….you should play it. show up for in-stores.

What differentiates your label from a major label?

arena rock is essentially my partner and i. there aren’t a million people to “approve” everything so we have a close relationship with our artists. the artists are mostly in control with our opinions, of course. we don’t force them into doing anything they don’t want to do although it IS our money and we make suggestions from time to time. we do, however, have major distribution (ADA). any buyer at a record store can now get our records when they order nirvana, girls against boys, superchunk or most other indie stuff. it’s no longer much of a problem when our artists are out on tour and go into a local shop to see if their records are there. if they aren’t in stock it’s because the store didn’t pay the bills. our artists DO get to stay at the arena rock headquarters here in brooklyn instead of the parmount in nyc. that can be good or bad depending on how drunk they get. i end up having to make the beds.

How often do you listen to unsolicited materials? Do you want to?

i listen about once a month to a pile that accumulates in our headquarters.

What is the most difficult aspect of your job that a typical music fan wouldn’t be aware of?

a typical music fan is going to buy whatever he/she chooses. once we decide to release something our asses are on the line both financially and creatively. no one sees you when you walk into a store and inconspicuously buy a copy of cristopher cross’ first record. if we released that…we’d be in some serious shit.

Do you have a day job or do you live off the label?

i have a day job at a major label. i take “the man’s” money and give it to the kids. a real modern day robin hood.

Do you feel distributors have a heavy hand in indie music? Such as if you aren’t that big it’s harder to get them to distribute your records?

you are 100 percent correct. why would they want to take something they can’t sell. they have to stay in business as well. there’s only so much charity you can give and stay alive. we’ve managed to that on our label. i’m not telling which acts. honest, it’s great to have credible acts but you gotta pay the bills. geffen got nirvana by having sonic youth.

How important is it to be in New York City, or any other major market city, for a band and for a label?

i don’t think it matters where you choose to live and start a label. take merge for instance. mac and laura have been there for ages and have had success on their own terms. i like them because not only are they decent folks but they release different types of music without the attitude. they also pay less rent.

But didn’t Mac get his training here in NYC as a student at Columbia, cut his teeth in the biz so to speak? He also spent all those years touring making those connections in order to get his label together?

i’m not sure of mac’s background. i don’t think he needed connections to

begin his label. it just takes a bit of heart and a hard head.

Why do you stay in New York?

my day job. this city’s addictive.

What is your favorite rock city?

i don’t really have one. that’s the toughest question you’ve asked.

What is your favorite label?

i don’t really have a favorite label. as mentioned, merge is great. hell, i like our label if i must choose one. i will tell you that i don’t like labels that specify in just one genre. they may be good at what they’re doing but in my opinion, they’re being close-minded.

How did you get into the music biz?

my parents were divorced when i was very young. music pacified me. i read every liner note to almost every record in the 70’s. i loved it. when i graduated college i saved up enough money from waiting tables and working at record stores and moved to nyc. i did a fanzine. i met publicists. i went to shows. my pal, dan, (who’s now my partner) had the idea and i knew a band and said “why not?”.

Generally what do you think about the prevalence of mp3s and the whole Napster Phenomenon?

i’m not sure how i feel about it. i always wanted to buy a record…support the local music store and end up with the entire package in my hands.

Do you believe that the “record” is going to become obsolete in favor of structures like the subscription system that some labels are toying with, and how do you think this change in music delivery changes the way the public looks at bands?

well, it’s all radio at major labels. as far as how the public views bands…live is the best setting. i’d rather see a bad band on stage sweating it out rather than “streaming” a video/song or watching some guy with baggy trousers spinning a record. i wear baggy boxers and play records at home. i don’t need that when i’m out at night. let’s have the band play or just get me to an old man bar and i’ll play the jukebox.

What’s your favorite old man bar in NYC?

i can’t share that. i do love milano’s on houston street…turkey’s nest in williamsburg…greenpoint tavern in williamsburg…and a couple old man, polish bars in my ‘hood.

What bar has the best jukebox?

i like the jukebox at the tile/international bar. the replacements “tim” is always good to drink to. the best jukebox i’ve EVER heard is in a brooklyn bar called o’connors. it’s got pretty things, kinks, pavement plus it features area musicians. i think any great jukebox should have around 20% local music. the bartender is a guy named, spike priggen. he provides the juke with the great selection and is a musician himself. o’connors is also in arena rock’s “top ten bars in the country” list.

What do you think of the “scene” concept and its seemingly demise here in NY?

i’ve never understood why there’s no “indie scene” here. it’s not much of a community in terms of helping each other out like there seemed to be in austin, athens and then seattle. maybe it’s because it’s such a dog-eat-dog city…every man for himself. beats me.

Have you seen the bartender’s at enid’s blow fire? Is that the closest place to where one can find the scene in NY?

enid’s is so up it’s own ass although clay and ms. lola are cool bartenders. it’s really a “scene” but in a thrift store sort of way. man, i don’t care what you say…i’m not growing my mullet again.

Do you believe the labels, both major and indie, had the responsibility to see this mp3 thing coming and should’ve prepared themselves better?

i don’t think as an indie label you “plan” for technology. we have our website and we sell things there (www.arenarockrecordingco.com). i just want to release music that we feel passionate about and if a new record store opens on mars…you’ll be able to find it there.

What do you think is in the future for small labels in relation to Napster?

i’ve never downloaded a record from napster. a few of our bands are for it. i don’t like seeing our promos on ebay. it rips off the kids. any journalist who sells our records there should be gutted.

Do you believe there will ever be any regulation, any royalty paying system for downloaded mp3s?

i think artists should be payed for what they sell. it’s sad but i think many kids don’t care about an entire full-length these days and that depresses me.

What can we do to change the kids’ minds about getting back into the album?

god, i don’t know. maybe have them smell the gatefold.

Do artists lose credibility the more music becomes easily stolen and/or easily downloaded?

i’m not much for what is considered “credible”. it’s all subjective to the listener. mellencamp isn’t credible most circles but i love him. i loved the new radicals record too. i listened to that more than i did the latest sonic youth or fugazi record.

Do musicians in general loose credibility with the mass popular audience when their music becomes free on Napster?

i don’t think they lose credibility. they lose money (in my opinion).

Do you think there is a rift growing within the “underground” between those that don’t care about the hit and those that want the music to keep living?

i feel the only rift between “underground” and “popular” is from people who have nothing better to do. i can’t be bothered.

Does music have a significant cultural value that is a necessary element in the survival in a culture like in the US?

i’m not sure that music is “necessary for survival” but when you think of procreation it’s difficult to imagine it without the sounds of barry white or galaxy 500 in the background.

Do you believe in the theory that every band has to have a hit single in order to make it?

it depends on what level. on a major label these days…yes. even a band like radiohead had to have a hit single in order to gain the attention they’re getting these days. i’m not a fan but i respect them. they’d never be on the cover of spin without “creep” a few years ago. i don’t see shellac on the cover of spin. then again, there are bands that have had a hit single and can’t get arressted by the time the second record gets released. it’s completely fucked.

You don’t see shellac on the cover of spin because mr. albini is so damn scary. Is he the producer of our indie era, and if not who is?

i don’t like his attitude. his mommy didn’t buy him an atari when he was a little boy and now he’s angry.

Do you wish there was more rock AND ROLL in contemporary music rather than indie-rock or rock?

that’s the second hardest question you’ve asked. are you stoned? i like rock and roll. rock ain’t so bad every now and then. deep purple’s highway star fucking “rocked”!

What issues would you like to see Tranjka discuss in future editions?

more 80’s bands. let’s hear it for cutting crew, hooters, mr. mister, winger and honeymoon suite!!!!

Hey, I saw the Hooters in 1988 at the pier on west 45th street, they rocked! They opened for Squeeze! Do you miss songwriters like those guys, songs with story lines and not necessarily songs about girls?

i can’t believe you liked the hooters. i loved them. saw them in birmingham, alabama opening for loverboy. i liked them too. fuck it. let’s not even get started about the outfield “play deep” record…

What is your favorite 80’s band and why?

it was probably U2 or the hooters if you must know. naw, it’s gotta be the replacements.

What is the best album of the 90’s?

tie: shack “hms fable” or flaming lips “transmissions from the satellite heart”

What bands do you feel aren’t getting the attention they deserve?

all of mine (laughs). our illyah kuryahkin records are some my favorite of all time. great press equals no sales.

Learm more about The Arena Rock Recording Co by visitng their website at http://www.arenarockrecordingco.com

This lineup was together for about 2 months before we recorded “Flowers in June”.

TR: If you were to make a family tree for your band what bands are your parents and ancestors?

Do you mean bands that influenced us or who we’re conected with directly?

I think we are a song band. So that would put us in the same line as a lot of classic 60’s rock, we all grew up in the 70’s and 80’s so we were influenced by Metal, New Wave, and Punk . And of course, the 90’s were the college years so, yea, we are influenced by alternative and indie rock too.

Here’s a list of players we are connected with:

Sam Densmore’s Silverhawk

Paul Elkins, Dai Kelly and Sam Densmore

Sam Densmore Discography: Slow Children CD, “da sein”, 1996, Running Records, Frequency db 7″ 1997, Running Records, Frequency db CD “Blue Down Where the Diver Goes”, produced by Jeremy Wilson of the Dharma Bums/Pilot, Resistor Records, Producer/Guitarist on Ted Connelly CD, “tedconnelly.com”, 2000, Achernar Productions. Rob Allison of Two Ton Boa/Frequency db sang back up vocals and co wrote the title track to “Flowers in June”, he also played drums on “tedconnelly.com”. Rob is currently in another band with Brian Sparhawk, which has no name yet. Two Ton Boa also featured Brian Sparhawk of Fitz of Depression.

TR: How often do you tour? Nationally or locally?

We tour as much as possible, year round. So far we’ve hit the west coast on I-5 and 101 from Bellingham to Los Angeles.

TR: How often do you practice as a band?

We tour a lot, so whenever we have a break.

TR: What recommendations would you make to other bands on music as a careeer choice?

Be ready to work your business because no one is going to do it for you.

TR: In general how important are band names?

Band names are important in that they give you an identity to the consumer of your work. So if you have the same name as someone else, it’s a good idea to change it or make sure it’s really yours before you use it. I like names with some symbolism or art in them, personally.

TR: Do you have a day job and what is it?

NO!

TR: What does it take to have a hit song?

Who knows? Timing maybe?

TR: Would you sell your songs to a pop-star band if they wanted to record them?

I’ll have to think about that one…>

TR: Would you be happy being a one hit wonder?

As long as I can play full time, I don’t care if I ever have a “Hit’. One hit would be nice. Who wouldn’t want more if you could have them?

TR: Do you feel the merger of AOL and Time Warner will really mess things up, or make cross entertainment (MSNBC/NBCi, CBS-VIACOM, ABC-DISNEY) the new positive standard for the future?

I think it is ineveitable that the corporate music structure will continue to benefit and scratch it’s own back whenever possible.

TR: Do musicians in general lose credibility with the mass popular audience as their music becomes free as traded mp3s on the Internet?

No. It’s just that now you can find the hard to get stuff.

TR: What do you think is going to happen with Napster?

I have no idea. My computer is still too weak to run it, so I haven’t been a part of the so called Napster revolution in the music biz.

TR: Where do you get most of your music? Online stores, traditional record stores?

I get most of my music at record stores, or people send me music or give it to me.

TR: What % is indie vs. major? Indie is “Independent”. Period. Without corporate funding/underwriting. There are as many different types of indie music as there are stars in the sky, I’m almost sure of it.

TR: What bands do you feel aren’t getting the attention they deserve?

Smog. Audio Wreck.

TR: Are indie bands even the underground anymore? And if not them, who is?

Indie Bands are totally the underground. Look at the mainstream right now. Big rock bands are bands like Radiohead, Ozzy and then you have POP, hip hop, etc. But indie rock is not the flavor of the moment. I tour a lot. I see a lot of underground indi bands. I don’t see many underground Backstreet Boys. Imagine that…

TR: What influence do you think our new president will have on indie music?

I think that it will be like the 80’s all over again. everyone gets to feeling kind of aggro under the republican rule. We bomb the Iraqi’s, people write anti war songs. The leftists unite. I heard somebody say thet the Republican win will actually do more to unite alternative political groups into action. Now they have to protect what they worked for and work ten times harder to get what they want in the future. Considering what most of us know as “indie”, indie music reflects the ideas of the left. I think people will get more outspoken and extreme than ever. We’ll see.

Learn more about Silverhawk at http://www.popsweatshop.com

TR: How long has us|against|them been up for and whose brainchild was it?

u|a|t has been around since april of last year. I guess you can say it was the brainchild of mark and myself after venting a litte frustration concerning the lack of any real viable music weblog/zine concerned with the indie scene. We were also a little annoyed with the lack of any real critical writing on music in the online arena. Aside from a few notables then, everyone just seemed to be stroking each other’s ego, like in a big scenester clique. It was pretty bad.

TR: How many times have you changed its format since it started?

Our editorial format really hasn’t changed since inception. We’re still committed to reporting an any news, reviews, etc. and adding our own biting commentary. One of our mottos is “if we have nothing to say about it, we won’t bother with it”. We’ve expanded a bit with what we offer (features, columns, radio) but our purpose is still the same. For the record, we’ve gone through one site design.

TR: Do you guys sit in an office together?

Not at all. Mark and myself are in Arlington, VA, Jeff’s in LA and Eric is stuck in Dover, DE. One thing people don’t realize about u|a|t is that it’s done during whatever free time we have at work, home, whatever. We all have full-time jobs and are involved in a bunch of other projects outside of u|a|t.

TR: Arlington, are you near Inner Ear Studios (the seeming mother of D.C. music production)?

Not really. Inner Ear is a few miles away, in another part of town.

TR: Are you the ground zero for must have info for the indie enthusiast?

I wouldn’t say that. We don’t cover the whole spectrum of indie music as much as we would like. We each like different genres of the indie scene so we naturally tend to report on those things. We’re currently looking to expand on that by adding new people to the team.

TR: What was the best show you ever saw?

That’s tough one. Probably either Jane’s Addiction in ’91, or Quicksand in ’94, or Hurl sometime in ’97, or even Cursive this past year. I’ve seen some really good shows but not one stands out as the best ever.

TR: Can you tell me where those favorite show were?

Jane’s was at Lollapalooza at Great Woods in MA (an outdoor ampitheatre), Quicksand in Buffalo in some club (the Icon maybe?), Hurl at the Bug Jar in Rochester NY, a great place, and Cursive at the First Unitarian Chruch in Philly.

TR: What is the best venue in the country?

I don’t really have a favorite venue. I like different venues for different reasons (crowd, sound, decor, etc) so it’s kind of hard to guage one against the other. But I do have a least favorable venue.

TR: What is your least favorite venue?

Has to be the Wilson Center here in DC. Yes, I am aware of all the history the Center has, how the whole DC scene started there, but that all doesn’t make it for the terrible acoustics. I can deal with slimy door people, cheap bartenders etc, but the reason I’m there is to hear a band. That’s the bottom line.

TR: What happened to punk rock? Is it commercialism or apathy or no doubt?

I think the big thing that’s kind of killing punk rock is the lack of activism in the scene. Back in the day, there was a lot more involvement from young punks and bands in fighting for causes, protesting, benefits, writing songs about bringing down the man and all of the injustice in the world. Now everyone’s singing about the girl who went away, not feeling good about themselves blah blah. It’s kind of killed the fire, diminished the importance of punk rock. You can say “it’s just music” but it wasn’t always “just music”. It was always about something more. You can even go as far as to say that you can blame the death of punk to the rise in popularity and commercialism of west coast/cali punk. They were always about taking care of themselves first anyway. Definitely not the way it was out here in the East Coast.

TR: Are indie labels trying to hard to mimic the majors in order to turn a buck rather than be the doorway to music that is hard to get your ears on?

I think indie labels have become more aware of the reality that they have to make some money in order to keep running. Today, with it being so easy to release your own record, you have to do more get your music heard, exposed to new people. And that stuff requires money. I think label owners have become aware of that and have started to do some of things that majors do that labels ten, five years ago didn’t like hire a press agent, have someone handle radio, etc.

TR: What labels are putting out stuff that you consider punk-worthy?

It’s kind of hard today to really find a label that has any clear cut vison. Everyone’s roster has become pretty diversified, with all kinds of different sounds and types of bands, like punk, hardcore, indie-pop, electronic, ambient, post-rock, etc. It’s definitely evident of the indie scene today, with it’s vast range of sounds and styles. Besides old standbys like Dischord and Touch & Go, one label that comes to mind that, to me, still hold true to their punk ideals is No Idea Records. Everything, from their roster to their distro. In attitude, quality, and in “doing it for the kids”, there’s nothing more punk than No Idea.

TR: Where do you think indie music is going? More folk, more pop, more hip hop?

Definitely not hip-hop. Sadly enough it’s looking to go more pop. That might be a good thing since it’s a sound that can be accepted by far more others than math rock or post rock. But there’s just so much one can do within the pop song contraints, so there’s no real room for innovation.

TR: What bands should we be listening to?

In terms maintaining some sort of throwback to the punk ideals of yesterday, bands like Milemarker, Boy Sets Fire kind of have that fire, wanting to make people stop and think and question things. And then there’s always Propagandhi. They’re still around, aren’t they?

TR: Do you think new bands along with the greater separation of the mainstream/major acts from the indie-world and the greater expense of touring than it used to be, will create a new music scene based on the local?

No, I wouldn’t think so. You can only go so far staying local. I’ve seen a few great bands do great locally, but never take off anywhere else. Even with the new distro models available today (like everything the Interner has to offer), bands still need to tour and get their name and sound out there. Creating a buzz about yourself is the surefire way to go.

TR: Do you think cities/regions will further develop their own sounds?

I think with the greater opportunity to hear and read about new different kinds of music we’ll seldom see any certain geographic location adhere to a certain sound. For example, the San Diego chaotic hardcore sound can be now be seen in bands from St. Louis, NYC, Baltimore. What was considered the DC Dischord sound can be heard from bands in Boston and Seatle. The whole Midwest emo-pop sound is everywhere.

TR: And do you think this will increase the amount of music venues where new bands can play?

Music venues will come and go because it’s so hard to make enough cash to keep a place operational. They usually have to have other parts of the venue (like alcohol, non live music dance nights) make enough money to cover the losses posted by the nights that live bands play.

TR: Do you think there is an audience, will there be an audience for this localized music?

There’s always an audience for any music, local or genre driven. How large and supporting is another question.

TR: Or does the Internet and Internet radio become the new venue for bands to seek a wider audience?

Initially it looked like that Internet would be a great way for new bands to be heard but now it’s so saturated with every band thinking the same idea. A listener is given thousands and thousands of choices. How does he or she know who to check out over another unknown band? Nine out of ten chances they’ll go for the act they heard a little something about, the buzz that’s been going around.

TR: Does it take a good booking agent or management to make it in this biz?

Good booking agent would be my pick. They’ll get the good shows to get the best exposure to generate the largest buzz and so on. I think that’s the way to go.

TR: I’ve read at us|against|them that you don’t like Jets to Brazil or Burning Airlines? Whats wrong with the old guys still rockin’.

There’s nothing wrong with old guys rocking. Ian MacKaye still rocks and he’s older than any of them. Jets to Brazil and especially Burning Airlines just don’t do it for me. I really think that if they were some new band without any of the history, they would not be considered nowhere near as good as they are perceived. Jets and Airlines are nowhere near the caliber and quality as their previous bands. Nor do they have to be. I understand it’s different directions and sound than the old stuff. I knew not to expect Jawbox when first seeing Airlines. I was actually expecting something a lot different. Instead I felt I got a two bit imposter. I still give them the chance to surprise me and win me over, but they haven’t yet.

TR: Do you think the reduction in “music with a cause” or “music that makes the audience think” is related to the mass distribution of sex and violence on TV and the Internet and that fans just want their music to make them feel good. That they turn to new bands for “fun” since they feel disillusioned by the culture in general (this is a bit a of a reach here, but I wonder if the kids these days feel that they “can’t do anything about it anyway” and look to music for escape rather than to excite their sense of rebellion)?

No, I wouldn’t say that. If anything, the abundance of sex and violence in media desensitizes everyone. It has become such common fare that the lines of what’s decent and respectable and common have become completely blurred to the individual, at times dangerous to a select few. If you had to point to some sort of outside factor contributing to the “dumbing down” of the scene, you could arguably say it’s an indirect cause of a booming economy. When times are good, no one wants to hear about the injustices of the world, especially when you don’t experience it first hand. We had a booming economy in the eighties to go along with a fluff and image conscious music scene. When the recession hit in the late eighties, early nineties, there was a sudden need for change. It seemed like everyone was protesting, talking about what’s wrong, bringing awareness to all kinds of issues and injustices. With things looking peachy keen, no one seems to care. Except for Zack De La Rocha. He’s such a martyr.

check out the us|against|them site at http://www.usagainstthem.org

This interview was conducted on September 15, 2000 before Shiner’s performance at Brownies in New York City. This interview was conducted by Jason (TR), the editor of Tranjka.net.

TR- We’ve been talking about Mp3.com’s legal fight with Universal, and Napster basically being shut down at all the colleges. Different people taking sides, obviously different musicians have been taking sides for it; Dr. Dre is against it, Lars is against it. Then you have guys like Limp Biizkit that are for it. Generally what do you guys think about this whole sudden mp3-ness and the whole Napster Phenomenon?

Allen- It seems to me that the labels have been sorely remiss in getting their shit together. They should have been on this and finding a way to make it, because it’s an inevitability…

Paul – On a way to make money.

Allen – Yeah, they should of found a way a long time ago if they’re really that concerned about it, they were fools about it, because they haven’t taken it in their own hands. I think now, at this infant stage, it’s probably helpful for a lot of people. I think it maybe helpful, you know, you may find out in five years it may have been helpful. It may also do exactly what Lars and Dre are talking about, is taking art from people who are busting their asses for it, and they say you’re bringing down, it takes the power out of the big label’s hands and all that, I agree, but behind the big labels are artists who make money and it also takes the money out of indie labels, and behind that are individual artists. I see pros and cons for each side, basically I think the labels have been…

Paul – They’ve slacked.

Allen – …should’ve found a way to make a royalty inducing, you know what I mean…

TR- They should’ve figured something out, they shouldn’t have let it go so far.

Paul – It’s definitely not a surprise, really, the technology had been in the works for a long time, right down to bootleg CD’s, now you can actually make CDR’s and you can bootleg any CD you want the technology has been around forever, they’ve kept it from the consumer market.

Josh- They were worried about cassettes at one point.

Paul- Yeah.

Josh- It’s a joke now. At first I felt really threatened by it because with the amount of records we sell it could definitely effect a band like us more than a Metallica obviously, but, I’ve since come to realize that it can only do good, anything that gets the bands name out and people hearing the songs, is good. I’ don’t’ think it’s gonna, because you can have a whole record on mp3 and burn your own disc of it but if you go to the show and you see it there with the artwork and everything, I think you’re still going to want it. People have given me the promo the copy of a record.

Paul – And I’ll still go buy the record.

Josh- Which is ultimately the same thing, I still want the record.

Allen- And sometimes the people who have downloaded it off the Internet are people who maybe are fringe buyers anyway who probably wouldn’t have bought it in the store it seems like you know.

TR- That’s what they’re saying.

Allen – And you may gain fans by that if they end up with this blank disc that has the tunes on it ultimately they’re gonna want, if they really like it, that marginal buyer who could go either way, they end up really liking it, they’ll go get it, or get the backlog, back catalogue. (Pause) they want to see artwork, I think that’s the key too. I really do.

TR- You guys sell CD’s on the road? Have you seen a difference there?

Allen- In our sales?

TR- Yes.

Josh- It’s hard to know.

Paul- For us it’s really hard to gauge because our sales are…

Allen- Different each time.

Paul-…semi-sporadic; just because we had gone for a long time without having a record out. Whenever we have something new obviously its going to sell, so it’s hard to tell.

TR- What do the guys at Owned and Operated say about it, because you guys have your album embedded at your site.

Allen- On the site.

TR- Right, where people can go and listen to it.

Allen- Well they can go and listen to it, but that’s not an O and O run thing that’s our own thing.

TR- Well, do they mind that, as a label vs. the band?

Allen – No, they don’t mind that, I had considering offering several songs as a teaser or something like that, but it’s already out of my hands, it’s already on Napster, it’s already on other sites

P- We’ve got bootleg shows out there that can be downloaded.

TR- On Napster?

Josh- People have come up to me and asked me about songs.

Paul- New songs that we’ve played live.

Josh -They didn’t know thew song titles so its just ”untitled” so now there’s a few songs floating around the Internet that are untitled by Shiner.

Allen- It’s out of our hands at this point, which is such…

Josh- I think it’s awesome.

Allen- …I do too; it’s such an inevitability though, you know, it’s such a reality,

Josh- Yeah, and they’re songs that might or might not end up on our new record, we don’t know and I think its cool that there’s somewhere, out there are…

Paul- Performances whether they are good or not.

Allen- But since its at such an infant stage there will be some, there is going to be some regulation of it.

Jason- It’s going to be really complicated.

TR- Well, what do you think, ideally what would happen?

Jason- Man I don’t know, the things I do know are radio stations have to make playlists of the things they play and report to ascap and bmi and what not.

Paul- Yeah, that’s a whole monkey wrench of a thing.

Jason- And the other thing as I think about that stuff is what kind of effect does that have on record stores?

TR-mp3 stuff?

Jason-Yeah.

TR-Oh, it’s huge.

Jason- What, you know, I don’t understand how…

P- On top of that online sales have been beating the shit out of record stores.

Jason- Right.

Josh- But what if the record store was to go online download the whole record…

Allen – well that’s a novel idea, why didn’t, you know they should’ve fucking figured that shit out a long time ago.

Josh- I think I’m going to open my own record store. And charge seven bucks.

TR- Well then they’d sue.

Paul- Well that’s theft.

Josh- So are promo copies; they have them for sale in every record store.

Paul- In LA you can get records there before they come out.

Jason- Well, why wouldn’t Napster be theft in that case then?

Paul- Because they’re not selling it.

Jason- But the people that are downloading it are getting it for free.

Josh- But it comes from another person’s computer, Napster doesn’t do anything but hook the people up.

Allen- let’s not forget Napster is getting rich on this shit.

Paul- That’s from advertising.

Allen- Yeah I know, regardless they’re still turning a profit.

Josh- They just provide the software.

Allen- They’re still turning a huge profit.

TR- What they came out with, the figure is that 10% of all Napster users actually put the music out there. And the other 90% just download it. These are the figures everyone is using to say Napster will put the small record stores out of business and is going to put the small labels out of business. I don’t see many small labels doing anything about this except putting more mp3s out and one side is, yeah its positive because it gets the bands music out there, but I think, and this is where it gets a little political maybe, do you think free mps devalue music?

Allen- I think it does.

Paul- Of course it does.

Allen – I think it makes it, I heard Pete Townsend talking about this the other day and I completely agree, in an article, I fully think that it makes it this worthless currency after a while and it tends to devalue it…

Paul- Any time there is mass saturation like that.

Allen – You can get it for free whenever you want, when you go out and see the band it takes it out, it takes away from it.

Paul- It definitely takes away from it.

Jason- I don’t know, I’m still waiting for that revolution, wondering what its going to be.

Josh- Music is out there to be heard,

Jason- I wonder if this is it, you know.

TR- The music is out there to be heard?

Allen -But if we can’t make money from it, how are we going to do it? Who’s going to want to do it? What happens, is it that it gets so saturated everybody kind of gives up making music until it starts over again?

Josh- Let’s weed out the chaff, that’s fine, let’s get rid of all those that are doing it, you know…

Allen – It could be us; it could put us out of business.

Josh- I don’t think it will.

Allen- I hope it doesn’t, it’s at such an infant stage.

Josh- You don’t have to have cable TV, but you do. You don’t have to pay for your channels, but you do.

Allen – Well, I think there’s a threat….

Josh- It’s not really the same thing…

Allen – No, its kind of a…

Josh- You can get an antennae and watch “Friends” all you want to watch “Friends” but people are still paying up to seventy buck now usually for cable.

Allen – I think there’s a sense of lawfulness, fear of repercussions.

TR- Why do you think the people sharing files, using Napster, are not afraid, how all of a sudden…

Josh- Because its the Internet, its there.

TR- But guys like you guys who are in a band would want to do that to another band? Then you have fans that supposedly believe in your band. If they use Napster to listen to other bands music…To me it gets confusing.

Allen -It is confusing!

Paul- There’s a crossover.

TR- There are people downloading your mp3 for free, and even if they become your fan, do you feel there is some tension there?

Allen- And that’s our hard work.

Josh- Chances are they come to the show and buy something that’s not on Napster.

Allen- I guess, they’ll probably stay home and play Quake. Quake 4.

Josh- OK, now you’re burning me.

Allen- No offense, but you know what I’m saying, they’re home, I think they’re lives experience is devalued. Basically I think that as I said before the thing is in such an infant state, in a couple years we’ll start to see exactly…

Paul- Where it’s going.

Allen- What the payoff is as far as what it’s taking away from sales and record labels, record stores, bands, bands are like not able, are going we have, and also there is no way to check and see…is there a way to check and see which ones have been downloaded on Napster, who’s getting hit the most?

Paul- Like how many downloads?

TR- Yeah, you can trace…

Josh- Metallica came up the names of everyone who did it, everyone who downloaded their songs, they went in to the courtroom with names.

Allen -Right the stack, I saw that.

TR- The theory is that the people that run Napster and the other file sharing sites don’t understand the value of music to begin with. That for them it’s “hobby”, and that unfortunately is that the people that do it are the CEO’s of these dotcom co’s, technology people that have all the money. Can it be looked at as a class, not a revolution of sorts, but as an attack on artist who represent the culture. If it is what do you do to stop it? Would you try to get all your stuff removed from Napster or do you then flood the system with mp3s and set up your own mp3 site?

Allen – Exactly, I think, the later would probably be the result, there is a lot of confusing politics, and I don’t know if I have it worked out.

Jason- I definitely don’t. I try to drink myself away from that generally, but it does bum me out if I ever do think about it, so it must not be all that great.

Paul- Times are changing and the way music is made is changing, down to the fact that any band that gets together can record their own record basically if they have the skills and then they can go straight to mp3s and completely eliminate the record label. Which is also another facet. Records labels are becoming more, unnecessary I think.

TR- Your relationship with record labels; can you relate that to your relationship with record labels? You guys have been on Desoto and Hitit!, you have been on different labels, and from a fan point of view it looks like you guys are really trying to get your music out.

Allen – Yes.

TR- Like that’s’ the whole thing.

Paul- That is our number one goal, anything we release we want people to hear it, we want people to be ale to buy it when we record it. And we’ve just been trying our best to get the best scenario. We’re always looking for the solution.

Jason- That’s another story in itself. That whole world.

TR- Do you ever think you’re going to stop being on a label? Or do you think there is some sort of not prestige, but to be on a label that has history that has personality, and does that add something?

Paul- Of course it does.

Allen – Absolutely,

Paul- It gains buyers just by what type of reputation it has and the people that run it. I think that had a lot to do with immediate sales of a lot of things.

Allen – I do definitely believe that music is being devalued. If everything is free, what makes things rare, I really think that’s an issue. It will tend too weed certain people out who aren’t as committed, it will weed it out I think.

Paul- But there is also less commitment.

Allen – Yeah there is also less commitment, I can’t make a living doing that.

Paul- But you know you don’t have to put forth as much effort. Like I was talking about with the recording aspect of things, you don’t need to get a bunch of money from a label to record, really.

TR- Does that make it easier for labels? Does it take some of the burden off? Id your label, or other labels you hear about repositioning themselves after the influence of mp3s, what’s the general feeling?

Allen- I think everyone is waiting for the technology to catch up so everyone can figure it out. Right now everyone is going,”uh, I don’t know”

Jason- I think that a label, the definition of a label, is going to totally change. It won’t be a label, it won’t be like some place you call home, it will be somebody that works for you.

TR-like booking agents?

Jason- Like a publicist. I think that’s ultimately what they are going to turn into. I mean if everything is just being downloaded, the labels not going to be able to use you as the cash cow, like you’re making hits and whatnot.

TR- The idea of the hit song, has become, that’s how you’re going to make it now. It seems the whole structure for music, even indie music, is that you have to have the hit.

Allen- Yeah.

TR- How do you guys deal with that?

Allen- Trying to write hits man!

Paul- There is a certain amount of truth to that, we’re constantly trying to make better music and make music that more people want to listen to, without compromising our integrity, our sound. It is true; you have to have a hit more or less to make money .

Allen- Or be on Jade tree ( pause).

Jason- There is just so much stuff that goes around and around and one thing effects the other. All connected by some small thread that if you start talking about it you ultimately find out that it’s who you know.

Allen- I think we’re under the old school assertion that if you write music that really matters, even if it’s not an exact hit people will recognize that and see it. Bust your balls and write the best stuff you can, and people will react to that.

Jason- But we’re finding out, we might be slightly disillusioned about that. As it goes along, I’m not saying it’s going to stay like that.

TR- Explain that.

Allen- It depends on how well you’re distributed. We are not distributed as well as we’d like.

Jason- It’s where you are and who you’re working with.

Allen- And you see other bands that have their first record and they put it out on lets say Jadetree or Touch n’ Go, Killrockstars, and nobody knows them but they’ll buy it because they like the other stuff on Killrockstars, you know it has nothing to do with whether they mean it, or integrity, or they busted their ass on it, or they toured the world.

Paul- Without sounding like sour grapes.

Allen- Without sounding like sour grapes, exactly, we’ve been busting our balls.

Jason- We could all have the coolest hairstyles, and be screwing models and whatnot, being in the limelight all the time. You know, you’ve got to be in the right place.

TR- Do you consider yourselves a s the band that carries the standard? To a lot of people you are considered the band that gets in the van and goes.

Allen- I think there’s a payoff to things.

Paul- I honestly believe things do pay off.

Allen- There are success stories of bands like that.

Paul- Perseverance and hard work are always going to pay off whether they’re as big a payoff as you’d expect.

Jason- Generally it just makes you feel good.

Paul- It may lead to something else, but if you work hard at something, it’s going to come around.

Allen- We’re generally of that assumption that if you continue on and work hard enough, that’s what gets us through hard times or bad shows or a bad set of shows. Continue on if you believe in the music. It goes back to if music is cheap and has been devalued everyone is just picking it up for free and you’re not making any money from it, that tends to pull the rug out from underneath you I think.

TR- Do you believe that music has a cultural value like a doctor or a lawyer have a value? Do you think musicians should have a similar position? Or should be taught that way in schools.

Paul- I think it’s very important to have…

Allen- Absolutely, growing up in school, not only does it spread your understanding of other cultures and things like that but it helps in like…

Paul- Bringing them together…

Allen- …math and language. I think it’s a huge deal. My folks are educators, music educators, definitely, I think it is as big a deal as learning to read and write. I think it is that key, I really do because what it opens up, what it adds, in enlightenment, its like the people who go to a big state school and study just business, they take just business courses all throughout college end up as ignorant as ever and as fools in the world with a specialty in one subject as opposed to those who went to a liberal arts school. And I think a liberal arts education is so much better, should be, some of the courses that are required are logic, if everyone took logic in the world I think the world would be a better place. And the same thing with understanding different religions. At least know about it so we can choose…

Paul- Well you eliminate the ignorance of it.

Allen- Whether you like it or not at least you understand it.

TR- What’s the biggest difference you have seen in crowds since the mid-nineties to now?

Allen- I think in the mid nineties there was a certain raison d’être, everybody was, especially from 91 on, there was a certain, everybody knew what you were doing, it had to do with the revolution, the Nirvana revolution. There was a certain ethic, you had certain labels, like Amrep, that represented what was going on, since sounds and trends and styles change all the time things are open as to what is cool. So, most people are sheep, they’ll follow different things and when there’s nothing being handed to them exactly as what is cool at this time, everyone is like “do I think that’s cool, oh, he thinks its cool, yah, its cool!”

TR- There’s more group, more looking for group acceptance?

Allen- I think there is a lot of that, that’s what I think has to do with people standing around at shows. Nobody wants to walk up front in front of a group of people; it’s a group thing. If there is a bunch of people in the back of the room I’ll call them up front, “come on lets make a show, we’re all here” Why come to the show and stand.

Paul- And then they do. If you just tell them.

Allen -Everyone is going, “oh I don’t want to stand up there people will look at my butt.” I think its as dumb as that as silly.

Paul- Someone might see my bald spot.

Allen- Or whatever there little personal issue is. It may seem silly but I think things are that silly. But as I was saying, in the mid nineties and a little earlier, there was a real reason.

Paul- There was a lot more aggression in the music at that time too.

Allen- Right, and it represented, and you see people united in the cause of Limp Bizkit, and the anger generation trying to call it…

TR- Limp Bizkit to me took parts of the old hardcore scene and made it a little bit more danceable in the mosh parts and then they yell. They have the elements but they don’t have the whole picture. They are yelling about nothing.

Allen – Totally

Paul- It’s kind of the Dr. schme effect. The watered down Dr. Pepper version of authentic, its the third generation, fourth generation.

Allen – I think it represents, to a certain extent, however dumb and bunk it is, its still is representative of a lot of people and what they want to hear right now and what is coming up.

TR- How important is the aggression factor in a lot of rock music?

P- I think it’s only important if there is something to be aggressive about.

Allen – But I also think rock and roll is reckless and aggressive and is supposed to be dangerous, and if its not, I mean you’re not going to call Belle and Sebastion rock and roll. It’s pop music or its popular or whatever and it falls roughly into the same, it’s not jazz.

Jason- Every level of music from Seals and Croft to Deep Purple to Zepelin, to Limp Bizkit, all that shit is just an upheaval of expression and some of it is bullshit of course, there is always someone bullshitting somebody else, but seems to me there’s a lot of angry kids out there right who’s white trash parents left them home to watch Springer. I mean, I know a ton of them. Everybody does their different way, some people moan about it some people want to kill people. Everybody has got their different way.

TR- How many bands do you see like yourself out there?

Jason- Very few.

TR- And did you ever feel like you were one in a group?

Allen- Our style of music?

TR- Yes, and you’re genre.

Paul- Considering we came up in the nineties, started touring in the nineties, we were definitely a part of a large group. We all had friends all over the country in bands, like and unlike our band. We were friends with the Neurosis guys. Seriously, it went that far in diversity, but we feel very alone, right now. So many of them don’t exist anymore…

Allen- For different reasons

Paul- and we’re a little out of touch with some younger bands, but there are still a lot of bands that we know, but its definitely declined. And, you know, we’re definitely not young and kids, we’ve been doing this a while so.

TR- Sometimes I think that’s why Jadetree does so well. Its because there are less bands, everyone who was a former somebody end up in this band that ends up on Jadetree.

Paul- Well, there has definitely been a cleansing in the amount of bands that are out there. Good and bad. It’s a shame that I’ve seen so many great bands break up, like Jawbox for one, but J. went on to Burning Airlines which is equally as great I think.

Allen- I think there’s a lot of younger bands see our lead and respect it and follow it, that we just don’t know about or are not thinking about

Paul- It’s hard for us to keep our perspective sometimes.

Allen- It’s hard to keep our perspective, its hard to see the forest through the trees, we’re so in the middle of it. If we got away from it for a while we could like see different bands. We play with bands all the time that sound like us and have taken different ideals, or have taken different things, that’s always a good thing, its encouraging to me.

TR- Do you see…when they write the book lets say you know 20 years 30 years down the road when they write a book about the time period do you guys, now I’m not trying to make you guys sound egotistical or anything, it’s a real honest question, do you guys see yourselves as being one of those bands that they are going to say this is the band that had the heart and the core of that whole time period…of that type of genre of music…if they are going to talk about bands In the 90s through the next millennium whatever if you look back, the bands that were not on major labels, the bands that didn’t get crazy play on MTV but were one of the bands that influenced another generation.

Allen- It’s hard to guess that…I don’t know if we typify that but it would be neat if we did.

Paul- I think we’re not well known enough to make that much of a mark at this point.

Allen- Although there are lesser known bands that have sold much less records that you know tend to have a longer lasting effect…I kind of got the feel of it between Lula Di Venia and Starlust is that the legend of Shiner grew…

Paul- Not because of press…

Allen- Not because of press but lack of because there was like “aw man there’s this band where are they at” they would pass Lola DiVenia however either online or whatever (everyone laughs) it got around and, so as a result when the legend had grown, I mean legend, the word of the band had grown a lot more than I thought.

Paul- Strictly by word of mouth.

Allen- Yeah, by word of mouth…bands all over the US and Canada and Japan and Europe, I get emails from out of the country all the time.

Paul- And we don’t have distribution out of the country.

Allen- Well we do…Southern distributes Lula and Splay.

TR- Right, some of the albums Southern distributes and…what’s the distribution thing for this new one? They do their own?

Paul- No, it’s a company called Simbiotic.

TR- Right…no, cause I’ve know guys…

Allen- It’s just not out in stores as we would like because for one reason or another you know either…

TR- Well it seems like distributors are acting like major labels in some ways…distributors, to even get in their catalog, you know what I mean? Or to even get orders and stuff…it seems like they’ve taken on more power.

Allen- Ya, you have to pass their test or something…. like it used to be…you know I don’t like anchovies on my pizza but I’ll sell it to people that want anchovies on their fuckin’ pizza you know what I’m saying? So it has to do with…

Jason- Trends.

TR- You think it’s trends.

Allen- So I would just sell it, even if you didn’t love the music you would still get it out and sell it if it’s going to sell you know

Jason- If we were on a certain label and so-and-so liked us, that the guys at such and such distributors looked up to they’d like it too.

Allen- But why is it about that? Why…

Jason- That’s exactly right, why?

Allen- If you have a trinket shop, you’re gonna have some trinkets you like and some you don’t like but you’re still going to try to sell them all

Jason- I know, it sucks.

Allen- But why is that?

TR-I just noticed that with Koch and these guys called the Orchard that seem to be making it more difficult in what they’re doing it that, if you didn’t sell enough they put your stuff on sale for you without you even knowing, so all of the sudden your record was selling below cost so they could just get it out of their warehouse…better than returning it but still it was a weird thing that I saw going on…so are you pretty happy at O and O?

Allen- Well, we’re happy that cause at a certain point we went through a lot of problems trying to find somebody to put it out.

TR- But that’s crazy to me

Allen- It’s crazy to me too!

TR- Can we talk about that?

Paul- I’ll talk about that

TR- Bring that on…that’s news to me…that’s shocking!

Paul- That’s why it took three years to get a record out between Lulu and Starlust because we talked to so many labels that were lukewarm and didn’t want to commit to us.

Allen- Cause we’re not the flavor of the moment…were making music that’s not get up kids or is not…

Jason- However, if you think about it like this, if we were given the opportunity to be with trendy people do you think that we could turn into trendy?

Allen- It has nothing to do with that, I really believe that under our noses at times trends change and we continue making music and have this set of songs and things move along we still this set of songs in this era and although we did find a distributor or label with Zero Hour before they went belly up, we actually….

Paul- We were in the middle of making a record

Allen- For months, months we’re talking about. It’s not as if there was no interest, there was interest, we had management here in town that really believed in us, CEC management which manages Ben Folds Five, you know what I’m saying, but the majors, we weren’t going to write any hits for major labels we did a bunch of shows at Mercury lounge and the Troubador in LA…

TR- You did showcases? Is that what you mean?

Paul- We played shows that a bunch of labels showed up to, we didn’t do showcases.

Jason- Does the music make the trend or does the trend make the music, I personally think that the trend makes the music, it seems like it at this point.

Allen- Well, I think the music happens through an influential band that happens to hit for whatever reason there’s that je’ne sa quoi about a certain thing that everybody flocks to.

Paul- Yeah, nobody picks what the sound of it’s going to be they’re just waiting for it, it hits and then everything follows.

Allen- It’s part of the fun of the music business it that you never know what’s gonna, I think that’s neat…

Jason: Basis of my question…

Allen- What happened is, I think it’s cause and effect, you have something that’s going to happen because it’s exciting and cool like At The Drive-In right now cause their tearing it up and they have a great live show, you’re going to find a lot more bands going nuts at their live show with afros…and everyone else is going to follow that, but for that moment for a year or two At The Drive-In is very exciting. That happens in the mean time while you are trying to find an outlet for this set of songs and by the time it comes around it’s songs written three years ago.

TR- But you had the album pretty much recorded.

Paul- the album was recorded…

Allen- When Zero Hour went belly up.

Paul- …then we were trying to find somebody to put it out after that, finally decided, I just called Bill Stevenson which I’ve known for years just being a fan of the Descendents first of all and then asked him if he wanted to do the record and within a week it was like a done deal and they were putting the record out and we were finishing mixing the record and it was like a done deal, so it went, that was really easy…

Allen- As far as getting the record out it was the right thing for us to do to not dwell too long trying to find, I think for a long time we were looking for making the step up, kind of like go from single a to double a to triple a to the big show and I think…

Paul- …the thing is we know how the indie music world works.

Allen- You know we wanted to step up and didn’t feel we needed to solicit ourselves all the time, so we came maybe lazier and complacent for 6 or 8 months and before you know it a year has gone and you think things should have happened… why is this…why are people not going nuts for this stuff, you know and you know it happens underneath you. We needed to get the record out O and O was perfect for it, got it out and it’s done pretty well but it’s not exactly the perfect home for us…the distribution is mainly the thing that’s disappointing. The label itself has done very well and has worked hard.

Paul- and has a lot of potential to be a great label.

Allen- Yeah…they have every potential in the world to be great, and we think we’ve upped or helped their position in the public eye some to a certain extent…

Paul- diversifying their roster.

TR-You guys going to do another album? Soonish? If you…

Paul- By this time next year it’ll be out.

TR-Okay so a year from now. What about your experience with Desoto records? In the past and present?

Allen- They have always been enamored with Shiner. We’re not necessarily flavor of the month, but they’re the reason we are still here because they got us such an initial…

Paul- They gave us the first hand up and it was a big hand up.

TR- any experience working with J. Robbins?

Paul- I’m very impressed with where he’s gotten himself, he’s doing very well. He’s leaned a lot about recording records in a very short amount of time, I think, in the whole scheme of things…really started really doing it the last three years-four years

TR- Yeah, working over at Inner Ear in Virginia, he’s going to be one of my heroes forever.

Paul- He’s definitely hero worthy, cause he’s always moving forward I think.

TR- Well, is there anything you guys want to say or get any message out on something I missed?

Paul- Come to the shows.

Allen- Come see what it’s all about…they’ve heard about Shiner…I think what happens is, one of the things we struggle with is maybe changing the name in order to just have people go, so they don’t go oh it’s Shiner I know what they sound like, they sound like Splae or I had that first record, are they still around, what are they doing?

Jason- Why aren’t they huge?

Paul- Yeah, why aren’t they huge? Do they suck? Why are they moving around labels they must suck? Why have they changed band members…well the guy must suck, he must be an asshole…I must be an asshole and I think it’s hard to erase that stigmatism or you know what I’m saying or that stigma or whatever.

TR- You didn’t change labels for any bad reasons?

Paul- No we didn’t get kicked off any label at all, in fact the Hitit! thing wasn’t supposed to be just Hitit!

Allen: It is a DeSoto release.

Paul- Because DeSoto couldn’t get the record out…busy with the Jawbox record and we were feeling very very pumped to get going, you know get Lulu out so we had the opportunity to get involved with Hitit! which gave some more options for us to put it out and you know business took over from there…went south.

Allen- So for whatever reason, and I think people tend to assume that they know what a certain band’s about or not about and then when people come see it they’re “damn you guys are this and this but you’re also this and this and that’s another thing that we’re writing diverse music if you listen to one track to another track we’re not like emo core we’re not rap rock or we’re not easily classified and I think that, while it’s one of our strongest points is our Achilles heel also because it takes a while to really figure out what it’s all about we’re not just going to lump it in we’re not gonna do one song over and over and be gone. We’re trying to make music for a long time, have a roster of albums that grow and evolve and do things the right way that all our heroes did like Led Zepelin they didn’t make a bad record there are bad songs you know what I’m saying but every record was a growth, and they made smart changes and wrote songs that were just kind of awesome all the way around.

Paul- And the Who also, The who is a better example because their music changed so much from the beginning to their peak which…

Jason- They gained and alienated fans with each release.

Allen- That’s the archetype that we’re shooting for and that’s not necessarily followed by a lot of bands. What it takes is commitment from a label, and commitment from your fans to listen to it but I don’t know if you are gonna get that in today’s.

Paul- Short attention span.

Allen- And other things to occupy your time, you could go buy three albums at the record store and that’ll last you three weeks, you could stare at the album artwork while you’re smokin a dubie and listening to your headphones, that made it for, when I was growing up in the 70s.

Paul- made it very personal.

Allen- Yeah and right now you don’t need that stupid artwork or whatever, I got this and I’m playing Quake while I’m also sending emails or whatever…back to the devalued.

TR- Becomes a background.

Paul- It’s become the soundtrack for your life.

Allen- Exactly and it has less to do with, but what we’ve all found out with our fans and there is a core of about, actually I have no idea how many, but I know that those fans that are truly committed do get it and are moved by all the little subtle nuances and things that we have.

Paul- It definitely makes it worthwhile when somebody comes up and you can truly see that they understand and it affects them and I would like it to affect more people but it certainly helps when some people really get it.

Allen- I think we’re cultivating a certain core, cult audiences. Certainly not to equate ourselves with Rush, but Rush is going to ship a million records and they are going to play probably to the same fans every town and in the same arena every time they come through cause they’re not going to gain many new fans, maybe a few each time but those Rush fans…

TR- Someone’s younger brother.

Allen- Right, that’s what it is but without having publicity or a million articles or something like that, Rush can continue to exist and have a great living you know they make I don’t know probably a million dollars a fuckin’ concert or some shit, who knows

TR- But still they make royalties off their old, you know YYZ

Allen- But they’re doing well, They put out new records and I think it’s possible, I don’t want to just do that, I want new fans all the time I want to create new and relevant music all the time, I want girls to come to the show and not just guys who listen to Rush.

Jason- How many people do you think downloaded the last Rush mp3?

Allen- Probably quite a few, you know there is so many Dungeons and Dragons playing nerds that are downloading that shit.

Jason- That don’t already own it and have owned it for years and years and years?

Allen- who knows?

TR- Well they download so they can have it at work.

Allen- Exactly.

TR- They can put it on their computer at work.

Allen- they send it over, email it over, waiting so they can have it at work.

Shiner’s most recent release is “Starless” on Owned and Operated Records. You can buy the album at Owned and Operated or listen to the album at the band’s website, Shiner.net.

This interview is with Alan Charing who has a new album out with his new band, A.C. Cotton.

TR: What’s your south?

AC: a place where i can disappear when i’m done, live on a farm or in a shack, raise alligators, probably somewhere in cajun country, louisiana.

TR: Have you been to Nashville? And did you like it?

AC: Yes. and No.

TR: And if not do you plan to go?

AC: we’ll be back there i’m sure. it just seems really touristy and like there is no real heart to it now… but i don’t know; i’ve only passed through a few times, short stops. maybe it was my fault for going to a seafood restaurant in a city nowhere near any ocean.

TR: Or where do you want to go, where does the root of your music live?

AC: I do feel like it comes from being out here in Portland. I moved from boston and did take some stuff with me, a lot of influences from there, but i do FEEL like my music is in the west. Not western, but of the west, like kerouac said, the east of my youth and the west of my future. I WANT to go everywhere i can.

TR: Do you feel there is a resurgence of Rock and Roll in the indie world, music that’s getting away from the drone and shoegazine, fist airing, of hip-hard-rap like Limp Bizkit?

AC: In the indie world, yes. in mainstream, no. I think the term “indie” now is even too limiting. i don’t feel that straight rock and roll like ours even fits into what most would consider an indie sound, but we like it, and we are certainly independent. but that old style of rock and roll doesn’t seem as easily accessible besides maybe a band like the black crowes. if people had more exposure to it in a mainstream way, i bet they would dig it too. everything is trying to fit into something now, and thats a sure way to be unoriginal and unartistic. you just do whatever feels good and people will get it or they won’t. doesn’t matter if it sells

TR: Which end of the spectrum do you like better; Rolling Stones or XTC?

AC: stones.

TR: If you were to make a family tree for your band what bands are your parents and ancestors?

AC: bob dylan-godfather
the band-mom
the stones-dad
tom petty and bruce springsteen are uncles
kurt is a dead grandfather
roger waters and leonard cohen are eccentric cousins
and the black crowes and crazy horse are brothers
the beatles are like great great grandparents who won’t talk to us.

TR: What’s your favorite guitar, and what guitar do you play the most often?

AC: i have a ’74 les paul which has been pretty good to me. also a music man. and a tele. that family is pretty sturdy. i had a gretsch country gentleman, but the way i play, it was impossible to keep in tune. when i am home, or writing songs, i use a beautiful hollow body vox that i bought from a friend of mine it isn’t good for live shows either, going out of tune, but it is all i play at home or writing. i guess that’s my favorite in many ways.

TR: How often do you tour? Nationally or locally?

AC: we try to get out of town now once a month, even if its down to california and back for a weekend, just to keep at it. we did a month of touring last summer to the east coast and through the south, and plan to do that again at the end of this summer, hit the festivals and see as much of the country as we can.

TR: What recommendations would you make to other bands on music as a career choice?

AC: 1. you better love it, and really want to do it. don’t just take up space just for kicks.
2.its great if you don’t want to make any money for a long time

TR: Do you have a day job and what is it?

AC: freelance waiter

TR: What does it take to have a hit song?

AC: don’t try for it. just write what you want. if you are a good songwriter, hopefully you will get the recognition, and even then probably not. but i’ll let you know when it happens

TR: What is your definition of success?

AC: to be able to feel good about what i am doing. not necessarily happy all the time, but proud. knowing there’s nothing else i can do. to be able to keep myself alive doing what I love, and keep going in a positive direction. a lot of people say success is happiness, but i know a lot of people who are successful and unhappy. or vice versa.

TR: Would you sell your songs to a pop-star if they wanted to record them?

AC: no. not really. not yet. they are a part of me; it would be weird to hear it from someone else, and i probably wouldn’t like it. it wouldn’t sit well. my ego wouldn’t stand for it

TR: Would you be happy being a one hit wonder?

no, but i would take the money if it came

TR: What bands should we be listening to?

AC: a.c. cotton, all the old bands i mentioned before. sonic youth, frank black, a lot of jazz, bob dylan bob dylan bob dylan

TR: What bands of the 90’s didn’t get the attention they deserved?

AC: american music club, tree, poster children, freewheelers, elephant sandwich. or maybe they really did and i just don’t know it. bosstones took a long time to really hit too.

TR: Do you find redemption in your songs?

AC: hell yes. i better.

—–

Learn more about Alan Charing and A.C. Cotton at the website http://www.accotton.com

JM: How would you define the music your band makes?

Linc: A passerby to our practice once stopped to tell us we play what his brother describes as “strength music.”

Finn: Over the top Rock.

JM: How important was your live show in cultivating the sound on your new album?

Linc: We’re too young and inexperienced to really deliniate between playing live and recording, in my opinion. We write and conceive our music primarily as live rock music, and recording happens on that ground. We try to plan some embellishments for the records, but generally, we put down what we play live. I’m not dogmatic about this, though. I don’t necessarily think a record should be true to the live sound. We make decisions on overdubs and other exclusively-studio sounds as the opportunities arise, always just trying to make the best record we can make in the time we have. If we had an abundance of studio time, our records would probably sound a little different, but we do what we can on our budget.

JM: How much Bob Weston is in that album? What flavor did he add to your music?

Linc: There are two dimensions to this, because not only is he our engineer of choice, but he plays in a band that has influenced what we do. The first part of the answer, then, is that the sound on the record is a Weston-ized sound; the music we write lends itself to his kind of production, where each instrument is allowed to work in its own space in the mix. The sound is very open, yet very pummelling, in-your-face as well. The second part of the answer is that there’s definitely a paradigm of rhythm-section action of which the vortex is Shellac, and we’re somewhere orbiting that paradigm.

JM: Were any of you fans of Big Black?

Linc: I like Big Black, but they were sort of before my day; I never saw them live. I’m a big Shellac fan, though. Robert (drums) and I are Shellac fans.

JM: How long did you play as a band before you recorded the album?

Linc: I feel like these questions are about the first record? We have a new record coming out in June on Initial. In either case, the timeline is thus: Steve and Robert and I began playing together in the Winter of 1998-99 and played our first show in March of 99. We recorded “Style No. 6312″ in October of that year (it wasn’t released until a year following). We asked Finn to play with us appx. March 2000. We spent a lot of time working on ways to re-conceive the band with two guitar players, so the next several months were spent between re-learning the old material with the new lineup and writing new material. We really buckled down on the new material in the winter of 2000-2001, and recorded the new record in February at Chase Park Transduction in Athens, GA, again with Bob.

JM: How important do you feel the guitar is to contemporary music and is this good or bad?

Linc: Contemporary popular music? Less and less important. I don’t know. I love the electric guitar and amplification and think that its uses are quite infinite. I also think that a lot of guitar-based music is really generic-sounding these days. Which is too bad. My job in this band is playing the bass, however, and I can say from that end that the bass is an historically under-used, under-appreciated instrument with which you can do some really cool shit if you bother to learn how to play it.

Finn: I think guitars are a huge part of rock music, but just having loud guitars or lots of overdubs or “killer tone” doesn’t make rock music. A band makes good songs. You notice that Slash’s Snakepit can’t really pull it off the way G’n R can?

JM: In your music is the rhythm/groove the driving force or the melodies?

Linc: I’m happy to be able to say that our music is driven by both the rhythms and the melodies. That’s one of the excellent things about the bass, incidently — that it can provide rhythm and melody simultaneously. But in terms of the band, there’s really a focus on both ends of that spectrum, as we spend a good deal of time working the instrumental arrangements and Steve is always willing to adapt the vocal melody to a fitting place in the music.

Finn: It goes either way. It all has to do with what the song calls for. If it is a quiet song with a simpler melody, there’s no need to clutter it up with lots of busy drums. But sometimes a part sounds much better when the guitars stay out of the way of the bass and drums.

JM: Which is more important sound/atmosphere or song/message?

Linc: The cool thing about rock and roll is that song/message is inseparable from sound/atmosphere. Which is why I’d pretty confidently say that lyrics don’t matter in and of themselves. Their meaning is provided through their relation to the aural context. This fact is basically ignored by 67% of all bands. It ain’t what you say but how you say it. But this ain’t to say that what you say doesn’t matter at all.

Finn: I used to think that the most important thing was the song itself, and it still is to me in a way, but the way everything sounds makes a huge difference. Every vocal, guitar line, bass line, drum fill, etc, can make a different impression depending on how it sounds–first from the instrument itself but then the way it is recorded and mixed.

JM: Do you have a day job and what is it?

Linc: I’m answering these questions from my desk in the English Dept. of Duke University, where I’m the assistant of a really cool, insanely smart, compassionate, flexible professor and expert of Black Studies named Houston Baker.

Finn: Yes. it sucks.

JM: Would you tell other bands to move to smaller cities like Chapel Hill rather than go to music Meccas like New York of LA?

Linc: I wouldn’t tell ’em that. There’s a reason to be here, and there’s a reason to be there.

Finn: I have no idea what I would tell bands to do in that situation.

JM: What does it take to have a hit song?

Linc: Apparently, these days, it only takes corporation manipulation. It clearly doesn’t have much/anything to do with quality or work or any identifiable non-monetary value. Company X sinks Y amount of $ into Band Z, and since Company X owns/is owned by Company A or B, which is/owns media outlet C, Band Z automatically gets 10 spins a day on every commercial radio station in USA, and everybody knows if it’s gettin’ played that much, it MUST be good.

Finn: Well, I think that given the quality (or lack thereof) of most of the “artists” who have hit songs now, all it takes is for most of the listening public to be complete morons who eat whatever you feed them. Some of the most asinine pieces of crap that are considered hit songs are fucking awful. And I’m not talking Britney or N Sync–that shit is good compared to the dreck that passes for “rock” on the radio. If you are a band whose label can pay for huge radio/video promotion, then your chances of having a hit are much greater than any indie band. I think it’s much better to have an album, a collection of songs, that speaks as a whole, than one hit song and 9 other crappy 4 chord songs.

JM: What is your definition of success?

Linc: We put this band together to bring the rock to a scene that was not rocking. We’re bringing the rock. The kids are happy. So we’ve succeeded. Everything that comes next is just a big surprise.

Finn: I’ll feel successful when I can come home from a tour and not have to borrow money or worry about what I am going to tell my roommate about the bills or rent. And when I can throw TVs out of hotel windows.

JM: Do musicians in general lose credibility with the mass popular audience as their music became free as traded mp3s on the internet?

Linc: We meet people all over the country who tell us that they found out about our band on napster. They’re coming to the shows, so I’m not complaining. I think that MP3s are simply the new-technology cassette tapes. In some way, sure, it’s copyrighted material and shouldn’t be “stolen,” but it’s also MUSIC, which is not a god damned COMMODITY. The cassette-tape/MP3/what-have-you is simply the means by which people let other people know about music. At the end of the day, the cassette/MP3/whatever sounds like shit, and if the listener likes, she will go buy the record from a real/virtual store.

Finn: I dont’ see how they would.

JM: What do you think is going to happen with Napster?

Linc: It’ll probably resurface with a fee.

Finn: I don’t think about it very much. I’ve never been on Napster. I think it has been somewhat helpful to our band, since we have met people who heard us on Napster before they heard it anywhere else, and that has brought them to the shows. So I hope that smaller bands can still get exposure from something like Napster, and that people can find songs they are looking for easily, but I am not very concerned about its future.

JM: Where do you get most of your music? Online stores, traditional record stores?

Linc: Traditional record stores or ebay (for hard-to-find stuff).

Finn: Traditional stores.

JM: What % is indie vs. major?

Linc: If it’s new music, it’s virtually always on an indie label. The only new music major-label release I can remember buying in the last year is “stankonia,” which isn’t all that great. Some good songs, and it did cost $3 more than whatever else I might have bought. Oh, and the new sonic youth record. In general, there just aren’t bands that interest me on those labels. 70-80% of the music I buy is older rock, and usually on vinyl, unless I’m obsessed enough to buy the remastered cds, which sometimes are worthwhile. And I guess those are usually on majors.

JM: What bands do you feel aren’t getting the attention they deserve? Bands for Chapel Hill?

Linc: On an abstract level, most indie music deserves more attention and deserves to be taken more seriously than it is. Whatever it may be is likely to be somewhat better than 90% of the music that does get the attention of 90% of the public. But there are definitely degrees of goodness and not-so-goodness in indie-rock as well. If I were to cast one vote for an under-appreciated band, it would be for Silkworm. They are one of the greatest bands of the last decade, and a lot of indie-rock listeners don’t even seem to know who they are.

JM: Do you think the greater presence of booking agents, distributors, and publicity crews have made indie-rock in the mirror image of the type of musical organizations indie labels were trying to remove/distance themselves from?

Linc: In some cases, I know that’s true, but I also think those kind of people/organizations are logical/reasonable entities to have around. They make possible an increase in scale of the indie-rock world. They provide services that many bands need.

Finn: There is nothing wrong with having a booking agent, or having your record distributed nationally, or having a publicity person help your record get heard by people who might not hear it otherwise. Making records and being in a band costs a lot of money if you want to do it as more than a hobby. I have spent so much money in the past year and made so little that it is becoming a concern. If this is what I am doing 2 months out of 3, then I have to pay bills, because those keep coming. And if I have to work full-time at my jobs when I come home from a tour,then I can’t really spend time booking a tour, or calling distributors or radio stations, or any of that. None of us can. I’m not expecting to make much money out of this–I’m only hoping I can get by for the time that this band makes records and tours. Having a booking agent who can get the best possible shows we can play, a distributor who can get the records in every store possible, and people at our label who can push the record to everyone possible all makes a difference. And stores and radio stations and clubs will listen to a distributor or publicist or booking agent more than they would to some band they have never heard of asking for a show or radio play. So those people, whether or not they are on the scale of a major label, are important to bands. It would be great if we could do all that shit ourselves, but how can I pay my rent if I don’t get paid to do any of it?

JM: Do labels become obsolete in the future? A future where a band can inexpensively afford to record two songs and post it on the Internet, and possibly eventually stream their live shows through high speed cable wires?

Linc: Labels do the work that bands don’t want/don’t have time to do. Most bands need representation. Even in the hypothetical label-less world you present, bands without some organization and representation to push them above the surface would drown in just the sheer quantity of other music.

Finn: That’s definitely a possiblity. Anything that can make it easier for bands to be heard and be compensated for their works is better. I think labels are a better option at the moment, because most labels that are worth their salt have people who know how to get a record heard, who will bust their ass to make sure a band’s music gets as much attention as possible. But at the same time, those labels have their own interests–if they spend a certain amount of money for a band to record and press cds and make posters and take out ads, then they are going to have to make that money back before the band makes any. That’s not really unfair if they put up the money; it’s the way it works. But if it becomes easier for a band to make the recording they want to make without having someone else put up the money, then yeah, a labels will lose some of the power they have. And frankly, most major labels should lose that power.

JM: Do you feel the merger of AOL and Time Warner will really mess things up, or make cross entertainment (MSNBC/NBCi, CBS-VIACOM, ABC-DISNEY) the new positive standard for the future?

Linc: It’s already messing things up, insofar as these mergers are all about control and greed. These mega-corporations are perverse. They’re inhuman. These juggernauts generate forces which can’t be controlled or even anticipated by the groups of people who are nominally in-charge of them. We get screwed in a lot of departments. But there’s also something amazing about the world this kind of action is creating, where there’s so much distraction that anything goes. The right-wing can’t keep up with the pace of change, so it’s much easier for those so motivated to get subversive or “other” messages into the main current of the media. Young people can take advantage of new technologies and hopefully destroy the dominant paradigms.

Finn: No one should have that much money. It’s ridiculous, and what is even worse is how those mega-corporations have more influence on environmental issues or tax breaks or trade laws than politicians do. Who we elect is not important anymore–it’s who you get your cable modem from. But this has little to do with rock music. Rock music does not concern itself with these issues, but rather with representing something that doesn’t give a shit about who your internet provider is.

JM: Are indie bands even the underground anymore? And if not them, who is?

Linc: The word “underground” usually implies some kind of subversive element, which is lacking in much indie-rock these days. The radical-political stance, which is overtly subversive (how’s that for an oxymoron?), doesn’t really do it anymore, because it fits so neatly into a genre-pocket of the real world. (In the world that the MAN creates, there’s a special place designed to keep dissent fenced in.) The avant-garde can’t be called subversive, either, because it’s become a scene, a cool thing. I think to be subversive, moving, and undergound, you’ve got to play outside the box, in whatever you’re doing. You’ve got to inspire people to get out of the game that someone else has designed for them. Rock and Roll is perfect for this, if it’s done well. It passes on a feeling, an experience that transcends boundaries, which are the foundation of oppressive order.

Finn: The word underground has no meaning anymore.

JM: What influence do you think our new president will have on indie music?

Linc: Our new president can eat shit and die.

Finn: He’s an idiot and a criminal. The only influence he will have is making a new generation of people rebel against his administration. I hope he gets run over by a fucking logging truck.

——

end

JM: How much of an influence is J. Robbins (jawbox, burning airlines) and the greater D.C. scene on your music?

justin: The first time I saw Jawbox was on Conan O’Brian. They blew me away. I’ve been a huge fan ever since.

brian: As far as the D.C. scene is concerned, Minor Threat was a huge influence in the early days of me picking up the bass guitar, and Fugazi to a lesser degree. Their music was amazing to me and it inspired me to learn how to play hard.

merch guy james: Big influence. Those bands have some great roadies and tour managers.

JM: Or the Minutemen of early 80’s punk?

justin: I was into some early 80’s punk, but the punk stuff I mostly into was Sex Pistols and Green Day.

brian: misfits, bad religion, circle jerks, adolescents, agent orange, sex pisols, 7 seconds, tsol were big influences.

merch guy james: Punk? Yea, punk is great!

JM: What bands are your main influence?

justin: Bjork, James Hall, Jawbox, Nirvana, Michael Jackson

brian: every band i’ve been into since i was 12 has been a major influence (the cure, new order, depeche mode, jane’s addiction, sex pistols

merch guy james: Nerf Herder, MxPx, Skuss

JM: What’s life like in a band in Dallas?

justin: Life here is great. We have lots of good friends and there’s alot of really great bands. I wish we had a subway system though.

brian: there are pros and cons like any other town i’m sure. we have a fairly supportive local scene and decent embracement from radio with just about every major and college station having a program dedicated to local music. on the other hand there are plenty of people who go to clubs to drink and socialize rather than see bands. most clubs are professional and treat bands with respect. Pantera are from here!

merch guy james: Pretty cool. You get to move alot of heavy equipment, use fake id’s and drink!

JM: What other Dallas bands should be be listening to?

brian: doOsu, the pAperchAse, [daryl], tendril, chomsky to name a few. dallas bands like to spell their names funny like.

justin: my spacecoaster, lewis

merch guy james: Nerf Herder, MxPx, Skuss… oh dallas…. umm…. i’d have to say anything from the 4-peice [Daryl] days, and anything poppy like Adventures of Jet.

JM: Do you think new bands along with the greater separation of the mainstream/major acts from the indie-world and the greater expense oftouring than it used to be, will create a new music scene based on the local?

merch guy james: I hope not. Touring GOOD… Dallas BAD.

JM: Do you think cities/regions will further develop their own sounds?

brian: yeah, it will continue to evolve. whether or not it’s good or bad is a different story.

JM: And do you think this will increase the amount of music venues where new bands can play?

brian: all depends on the strength of the DIY spirit. most people in the “club” business are driven by how lucrative business can be, so it’s easy for quality of music to suffer if they’re not making any money showcasing new indie bands to 10 kids versus having 100 drunk frat daddies moving to the beat of the new limp bizkit album.

JM: Do you think there is an audience, will there be an audience for this localized music?

brian: there is and will be.

JM: Where did you draw your biggest crowd?

brian: I think i speak for all of us when i say, Valdosta, GA!

merch guy james: At the merch table after the Valdosta show.

JM: Where did you play your best gig?

brian: see above.

JM: Where do you think indie music is going? More folk, more pop, more hip hop?

brian: more heavy!

justin: more electronic.

merch guy james: More cd’s and tshirts hopefully.

JM: Does it take a good booking agent or management to make it in this biz?

brian: what’s your definition of “making it”? getting on MTV? if so then that’s what it takes. compromising integrity would be another key ingredient. but that’s all temporary and short-lived. i consider staying true to yourself by creating music that’s true to yourself. if that music happens to evoke emotions in someone else than you’ve been successful. your success could be gauged by word of mouth which is the best form of advertising anyway.

merch guy james: Now, this is a great question. I think the key to making in this ‘biz’ is a great tour manager. Tour managers hold the band together when little things like “wheres my cheese in a can?” and “who gets the bed in the back?” might normally tear a band apart. Plus, a tour manager can talk to the fans(girls) and video tape the shows (girls).

JM: How long did you play together before you recorded the album?

brian: i had one practice with “red animal war” prior to going into the studio but the other three guys had been together like a year and a half? also, jeff and justin and i all played in this other band prior to the incarnation of the animal called ‘the briefing room’.

justin: we’ve been a band since fall of ’98.

JM: How does this album translate into a live show?

brian: i always read about certain albums “capturing” the live experience of a particular band but i guess i always missed it. experiencing a band live just can’t be duplicated by listening to a studio recording of them on a stereo. so this album, as rocking as it is, translates into a even more rocking live show.

merch guy james: well, like…. the album is at the live show on the merch table.

JM: How often do you tour? Nationally or locally?

brian: we just returned from our first tour. it was the first time for all of us to be on the road and was a HUGE learning experience. it lasted two weeks and lead us on a journey from our home state of texas all the way to boston. now that we’re back home we play locally every chance we get, which is at least a couple times a month. another tour is already in the works.

merch guy james: whenever my schedule allows the band to tour. We tour global.

JM: What does it take to have a hit song?

brian: a catchy melody usually. heavy radio play will also do it.

merch guy james: Poppy, easy chord progression, with a ‘sing-a-long’ chorous.

JM: Would you sell your songs to a pop-star band if they wanted to record them?

brian: depends on which pop-star band…and only if they would sell us one of their songs to record them!

merch guy james: We are a pop-star band.

JM: Would you be happy being a one hit wonder?

brian: i would be depressed.

justin: that would never happen.

—–

for more informtaion on Red Animal War, make contact

deep elm records
po box 36939
charlotte, nc 28236 usa

sound spirit fury fire

(704) 333-4732
(704) 333-7732 fax
info@deepelm.com
http://www.deepelm.com

JM- Generally what do you think about the prevalence of mp3s and the whole Napster Phenomenon?

JD- To be quite honest, I’ve never downloaded a note of music off of Napster or any other file-swapping service, so I can’t really debate the pros and cons from a listener’s perspective. Supposedly our new record (street date: Oct.17) is already available in its entirety through Napster. That doesn’t really bother me at all.

JM- Why doesn’t it bother you? Is it because of a faith in music, that if the fans are listening to the music and enjoying it then you’ve done your job?

JD- I suppose. I guess I just feel like anything that generates more interest in the music can’t possibly be bad for us. And yes, I do feel like if people are listening to the music and enjoying it then we’ve been completely successful in what we set out to do. It’s part of our job to go to their town, play at their favorite bar, and make them WANT to go and buy the record. Right?

JM- Do you believe that the “record” is going to become obsolete in favor of structures like the subscription system that some labels are toying with, and how do you think this change in music delivery changes the way the public looks at bands.

JM- I’m sure there’ll come a day when every household will be equipped with a computer and a CD burner, but until then, I don’t think the “record”, as we know it will become obsolete. I work part-time at a “record” store in-between tours, and I can tell you we’ve got quite a ways to go. People are still buying cassettes, for Christ’s sake!

JM- Which record store? Which bands are selling the most vinyl records?

JD- It’s a chain store in Knoxville. In the year-or-so that I’ve been there, we’ve only had two vinyl LP’s darken the doors, ever. Something by Dub Narcotic, and “The Marshall Mathers LP” by Eminem. We have yet to sell either one.

JM- Do you believe the labels, both major and indie, had the responsibility to see the mp3 thing coming and should’ve prepared themselves better?

JD- Well, I guess most labels have taken full advantage of the Internet in terms of promotional campaigns, Enhanced CDs w/ free Internet access, etc. Seems like they could’ve foreseen any number of ways for the same technology to work against them. I guess it’s kind of a double-edged sword that way.

JM- Do you yourself prefer the sound of vinyl over the compression-ed sound of a CD? Does your band produce its albums knowing most of the fans will listen to it on CD; are you trying to best recreate your live sound?

JD- Well, I’ve always liked hearing the warm lows on LPs. I guess the analog medium just has a wider dynamic range or something. We’ve always tried to get that kind of sound. In fact, “In The Valley…” will be the first Superdrag LP ever pressed on vinyl. Hell yeah!

JM- What do you think is in the future for small labels in relation to Napster?

JD- They will join forces and rid the Earth of Imperialist Record Mongers!!

JM- You know everyone says that. But why is it that everyone is looking for management? It seems they and record distributors are the new power players in the careers of many bands. How bad of an experience with them did you have?

JD- It could’ve been worse. It could’ve been a lot better. We held up our end of the deal. We’ve never been short on material, but I’m just not willing to write to anyone else’s specifications. Especially if that particular person doesn’t know jack about shit. See Vitamin C.

JM- Do you believe there will ever be any regulation, any royalty paying system for downloaded mp3s?

JD- Seems unlikely, but like I said before, I don’t know much about it.

JM- How do feel about the elite colleges like Stamford and Harvard refusing to block Napster in the name of academic freedom?

JD- I’ll bet Lars Ulrich is fuckin pissed.

JM- Do artists lose credibility the more music becomes easily stolen and/or easily downloaded?

JD- Seems to me the only people who lose credibility here are multi- millionaires like Lars & co. or Dr. Dre who bitch and moan about lost record sales when they already have more money than their grand- children’s grandchildren will ever be able to spend.

JM- Do you sell CDs at shows? And have you seen sales drop, either at shows or through your label, or not meet your expectations?

JD- Yes we do, from time to time. It’ll be interesting to see whether or not any of this will directly affect our sales at shows.

JM- What influence do you think mp3s have on records sales in traditional music stores?

JD- It’s hard to say.

JM- Does music have a significant cultural value that is a necessary element in the survival in a culture like in the US?

JD- I don’t know if it’s a necessary element in terms of survival, but all kinds of people depend on it for all kinds of different reasons. I know I do. I can’t imagine a world without Rock.

JM- Do you think they should teach Rock in high school? Or at least a history of 20th century music?

JD- Probably.

JM- Where do you get most of your music? Online stores, traditional record stores?

JD- I’ve never bought anything online.

JM- What % is indie vs. major?

JD- I guess it’s roughly 50/50. Hard to say for sure.

JM- Can you name three of your favorite new albums?

JD- It’s not exactly new, but “New Parade” by The Sheila Divine is excellent. “The Pity List” by The Mayflies USA. And whatever Teenage Fanclub’s getting ready to put out. I’m quite sure it’ll be tops.

JM- What band do you feel isn’t getting the attention it deserves?

JD- Teenage Fanclub. They’ve never gotten their just desserts in this country, if you ask me. They’re too fucking good.

JM- What band, that has been around since your band began, gets way more credit than they deserve?

JD- Anybody who can’t sing in tune or play in time without a computer.

JM- If you were to make a family tree, what bands are your ancestors?

JD- The Beatles, The Beach Boys, The Byrds, Big Star, The Stones, The Who, The Kinks, Cheap Trick, Teenage Fanclub, The Posies, Dinosaur Jr, Swervedriver, Guided By Voices, My Bloody Valentine, The Replacements, AC/DC (I’m trying to make sure all the guys are represented, too. Didn’t mean to write a book on the subject. )

JM- No MC5, Television, or Iggy?

JD- Brandon’s got the Television stuff, and you’ve gotta love the Ig (with or without The Stooges) & The MC5, but I don’t think we’ve ever been quite that funky. At least Tom looks a little bit like Rob Tyner. BTW, Tom’s band Flesh Vehicle has a record out that’s worth hearing. I think you’ll pick up a lot more of the Detroit influence in his stuff. In fact, they do a pretty raunchy version of “Search & Destroy.”

JM- How important is the element of “fun” in your songs? As instead of being called a Rock band, you guys can be considered a Rock AND ROLL band? Much in the way people write about the Stones or Cheap Trick.

JD- Man, we just enjoy playing. Usually, the songs that wind up on our records are the ones we have the most fun playing.

JM- How much do you consider yourself a southern songwriter in a southern band?

JD- 100%. I think it’s high time that the definition of “Southern Rock” be changed, or at least amended; there’s a lot goin on down here besides .38 Special, Black Oak Arkansas, & Molly Hatchet.

JM- Do you feel Nashville is overlooked as a rock city?

JD- Absolutely. Nashville’s got a thriving Rock ‘N’ Roll/Power-Pop scene. Tons of good bands, good writers, and good venues.

JM- What other bands from down there should we be listening to?

JD- Lifeboy, Who Hit John, 30 Amp Fuse, The V-Roys, Flesh Vehicle, Pegasi 51, The Shine, The Mayflies USA, Joe Marc’s Brother.

JM- How supportive is that city to keeping a band going. I ask that last part in relation to how impossible it seems to keep a band together in NYC due to lack of paying part time jobs, time, traffic, and the subway.

JD- There are tons of music resources in Nashville. Practice spaces, studios, etc. Knoxville, on the other hand, is more or less devoid of anything other than what the bands make for themselves.

JM- So, why Knoxville if there is less music-stuff than Nashville?

JD- Well, it’s always been cheap to live here, for one thing. Don and myself are from here originally and our families are still here. We’ve been thinking about relocating to Nashville; Sam lives there. I really like Nashville, actually.

JM- Does Knoxville have a sound like Seattle did back in the grunge heyday?

JD- No, I can’t really think of any two current Knoxville bands that sound alike.

JM- Is it because of Knoxville’s proximity to the other larger cities that makes it appealing? Much like Champaign IL, proximity to Chicago?

JD- Well, as far as touring the Eastern half of the country goes, I guess Knoxville’s as good a place to start a tour as any. We’re 8 hours from D.C., and once you get up there you can work your way all the way up to Boston, and most of the drives between cities are no more than 4-5 hours. Same goes for the Louisville-Chicago/Midwest run. Out of all the regions of the country, we’ve probably done the least amount of touring in the Southeast, but still there’s Atlanta (3 hours) Nashville (2 1/2 hours) etc. etc. etc. However, getting out to the West Coast from over here is a ball-buster no matter how you slice it! We finally made it back out there last month.

JM- Did you get your break there, in Nashville, or where?

JD- Our Darla seven-inch had gotten some attention from CMJ, which I guess in some ways is like a tip-sheet for unsigned bands, or at least it was at that time, and we started getting calls from labels. We were touring pretty steadily at the time, but we had been playing a lot of New York shows. You know, you’d get on one of those “showcase” type bills with four other bands, the whole Industry thing with all the A&R. I guess we got our “big break” in New York.

JM- How important is location to being “discovered”. So many bands move to LA or NYC or Chicago to make it. Is there a lesson to be learned by the success (musical, not financial) of bands like yours?

JD- I really don’t think it has all that much to do with it. It’s been my experience that a band’s willingness to work on the road is a lot more important. Granted, a lot of bands are willing to hang tight at home in a small town, be the big fish in a little pond, and wait to be discovered. It’s unrealistic. I think in some ways, being from a town like Knoxville works to your advantage. You’re kind of forced to do things for yourself. No label president’s gonna see your name in the local weekly and come down to the local truck stop/rock venue and sign you to a five-album deal!

JM- What genre would you consider yourself to belong to?

JD- Rock. No Post-Rock, no Indie Rock, no Math Rock. Just Rock.

JM- Do you feel a connection to the early power pop band the Descendents and that California/DC sound of the late 80’s? i.e. Swiz, Dag Nasty, Soulside,Bad Religion.

JD- The Descendents have always been one of my absolute all-time favorite bands. I don’t think you could ever find a better synthesis of punk energy and classic songwriting. I think “Milo Goes To College” is probably my fave Descendents record. I really like the All stuff, too. I always felt like Milo was one of the best punk singers ever, right up there with Glenn Danzig & Joey Ramone. You know, really aggro but really tuneful at the same time.

JM- How many bands that you have seen or heard remind you of yourselves?

JD- Not many, unless you’re referring to all the ones we’ve “borrowed” from!

JM- Do you feel like you are part of a music community, and/or tradition?

JD- I’d like to think we’ve earned our place in the Power Pop file.

JM- Where do you find your core audience lives? What part of the country?

JD- The Northeast/East Coast has always been good for us. Actually, the West Coast has always been great, too. We’ve probably been the least successful in our own neck of the woods. There aren’t too many places in the Midwest where we do exceptionally well, although Chicago & Minneapolis are generally pretty good.

JM- What band, from after 1980, do you think exemplifies the Power Pop sound?

JD- For me, it would have to be either The Posies or Teenage Fanclub. At the risk of sounding like a broken record.

JM- Do you believe in the theory that every band has to have a hit single in order to make it?

JD- Well, that depends on your definition of “making it,” and a particular band or artist’s goals for what they’d like to achieve. We had a “hit” and as a result, we sold just enough copies to be considered sell-outs by Indie Rock elitists who bought our first EP, but not enough to establish the kind of clout at the label that a lot of your platinum-sellers enjoy. It totally changes their expectations from there on out, and if you’re not willing to bend over backwards (or forwards) to do anything you can, jump on any bandwagon or assimilate any trend that comes down the pike into the music in order to repeat that phenomenon, then the honeymoon will indeed be short. And not necessarily sweet.

JM- I know of a few artists whose labels call them in for meeting and ask them to write stuff more like Limp Bizkit, or more like Ben Folds Five. My question is where did the Power Pop women go? With the contemporary Rock sound seeming to be so male, even though it really always has been, but it seems no one took over after Kim Deal and her associated bands. Will rock always be male?

JD- Well, I can’t think of too many female artists in recent years who have even approached Kim Deal’s songwriting and pop sensibility. The Lilith Fair women were doing something else entirely. Luckily for me, they were doing it someWHERE else entirely. I just didn’t get it, I guess. I like Rock Music. I like it loud and pissed off. I like Joan Jett. Kim Gordon. Thalia Zedek. It doesn’t even have to be pissed off; just loud. Bilinda Butcher. Hell, it doesn’t even have to be loud. Nico. Moe Tucker. Georgia Hubley. I don’t know if Rock will always be “male.” I’m sure there will always be great female Rock artists. Sleater-Kinney certainly brings the Rock literati and the Indie elite to their knees on a fairly regular basis, and even if the lead singer sounds like Geddy Lee (in my opinion) they rock. They don’t play acoustic guitars and they don’t fucking yodel, either.

JM- What would you tell up and coming bands, what tips would you highly recommend they follow?

JD- Buy yourselves a reliable van.

JM- How much of the year are you on tour?

JD- Well, it’s varied quite a bit over the years. We’ve been out for as long as 11 months at a stretch. It always seems to depend on how well the record’s doing.

JM- Have you seen a difference in attitude in the crowds since you started touring?

JD- This year, you mean? Not really.

JM- Have you found who your fan base base truly is after making the adjustment from a major label to an indie?

JD- Well, the 2nd Elektra album sold just shy of 20,000 units without a video, a big tour, or a Billboard single. I guess those were the people who actually gave a fuck about the band. We’d just like to build on what we have left through constant touring and good records.

JM- What was the major adjustment when you changed labels?

JD- Well, I managed to go five years without having to work at any other job. Of course, with a major, you live on advances. They give you lump sums of money against what you’ll earn through record sales, and that’s how you pay your rent, etc. Of course, that money comes right off the top of whatever you make. Most bands rack up serious debts this way. So, I guess the biggest difference in day-to-day life is having to work a job in-between tours. Believe me, it’s worth it. The flip side is you get to make your records the way you want to.

JM- What type of treatment did you receive from your former label during your tenure? I only hear horror stories from bands once signed to a major?

JD- I’ll just say this; there’s a very, very narrow window of time in between the Ass-Kissing Stage (when you’ve got a hit) and the No-Phone-Call-Returning, Rats-From-A-Sinking-Ship Stage (when you don’t.) Only one of my so-called “friends” from the label has ever bothered to contact me since this whole thing happened. Like I give a fuck, I hate most of those people anyway and I’m just thrilled about the way things have turned out.

JM- and finally…What lesson did you learn, take with you, from your experience being on a major label?

JD- Simple: I’ll never do that again. No way.

Superdrag is:

Don Coffey Jr: drums

John Davis: guitar, piano, organ, electric bass, vocals

Brandon Fisher: guitar

Sam Powers: electric bass, vocals

Visit them at www.superdrag.com

JM: What’s your south?

AC: a place where i can disappear when i’m done, live on a farm or in a shack, raise alligators, probably somewhere in cajun country, louisiana.

JM: Have you been to Nashville? And did you like it?

AC: Yes. and No.

JM: And if not do you plan to go?

AC:we’ll be back there i’m sure. it just seems really touristy and like there is no real heart to it now… but i don’t know; i’ve only passed through a few times, short stops. maybe it was my fault for going to a seafood restaurant in a city nowhere near any ocean.

JM: Or where do you want to go, where does the root of your music live?

AC: I do feel like it comes from being out here in Portland. I moved from boston and did take some stuff with me, a lot of influences from there, but i do FEEL like my music is in the west. Not western, but of the west, like kerouac said, the east of my youth and the west of my future. I WANT to go everywhere i can.

JM: Do you feel there is a resurgence of Rock and Roll in the indie world, music that’s getting away from the drone and shoegazine, fist airing, of hip-hard-rap like Limp Bizkit?

AC: In the indie world, yes. in mainstream, no. I think the term “indie” now is even too limiting. i don’t feel that straight rock and roll like ours even fits into what most would consider an indie sound, but we like it, and we are certainly independent. but that old style of rock and roll doesn’t seem as easily accessible besides maybe a band like the black crowes. if people had more exposure to it in a mainstream way, i bet they would dig it too. everything is trying to fit into something now, and thats a sure way to be unoriginal and unartistic. you just do whatever feels good and people will get it or they won’t. doesn’t matter if it sells

JM: Which end of the spectrum do you like better; Rolling Stones or XTC?

AC: stones.

JM: If you were to make a family tree for your band what bands are your parents and ancestors?

AC: bob dylan-godfather
the band-mom
the stones-dad
tom petty and bruce springsteen are uncles
kurt is a dead grandfather
roger waters and leonard cohen are eccentric cousins
and the black crowes and crazy horse are brothers
the beatles are like great great grandparents who won’t talk to us.

JM: What’s your favorite guitar, and what guitar do you play the most often?

AC: i have a ’74 les paul which has been pretty good to me. also a music man. and a tele. that family is pretty sturdy. i had a gretsch country gentleman, but the way i play, it was impossible to keep in tune. when i am home, or writing songs, i use a beautiful hollow body vox that i bought from a friend of mine it isn’t good for live shows either, going out of tune, but it is all i play at home or writing. i guess that’s my favorite in many ways.

JM: How often do you tour? Nationally or locally?

AC: we try to get out of town now once a month, even if its down to california and back for a weekend, just to keep at it. we did a month of touring last summer to the east coast and through the south, and plan to do that again at the end of this summer, hit the festivals and see as much of the country as we can.

JM: What recommendations would you make to other bands on music as a career choice?

AC: 1. you better love it, and really want to do it. don’t just take up space just for kicks.
2.its great if you don’t want to make any money for a long time

JM: Do you have a day job and what is it?

AC: freelance waiter

JM: What does it take to have a hit song?

AC: don’t try for it. just write what you want. if you are a good songwriter, hopefully you will get the recognition, and even then probably not. but i’ll let you know when it happens

JM: What is your definition of success?

AC: to be able to feel good about what i am doing. not necessarily happy all the time, but proud. knowing there’s nothing else i can do. to be able to keep myself alive doing what I love, and keep going in a positive direction. a lot of people say success is happiness, but i know a lot of people who are successful and unhappy. or vice versa.

JM: Would you sell your songs to a pop-star if they wanted to record them?

AC: no. not really. not yet. they are a part of me; it would be weird to hear it from someone else, and i probably wouldn’t like it. it wouldn’t sit well. my ego wouldn’t stand for it

JM: Would you be happy being a one hit wonder?

AC: no, but i would take the money if it came

JM: What bands should we be listening to?

AC: a.c. cotton, all the old bands i mentioned before. sonic youth, frank black, a lot of jazz, bob dylan bob dylan bob dylan

JM: What bands of the 90’s didn’t get the attention they deserved?

AC: american music club, tree, poster children, freewheelers, elephant sandwich. or maybe they really did and i just don’t know it. bosstones took a long time to really hit too.

JM: Do you find redemption in your songs?

AC: hell yes. i better.

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Learn more about Alan Charing and A.C. Cotton at the website http://www.accotton.com